Posts by Old Goat

22

JWN Researchers - Early financial records for WTS

by Lady Lee in

how would we get the early financial records of the wts?.

was the wts considered non-profit?

a religious order?

Old Goat

I don't think you'll find much without serious research into county records. Those would be scattered everywhere. In the Russell era, financials were published in The Watch Tower. On the private blog for the TruthHistory people there's an analysis of Russellite finances, including the full text of the February 1881 "organizational document" with a scan of the signatures.

That's an invitation only site, but all I did was request access. They seem to grant access on request, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. I don't know of any analysis of Rutherford era financials, which seem to be more complex. When I was a new Witness (back in the late 40's) the gossip was that the Cadillac cars were the gift of two women living in the South who had money from Coca Cola interest. I wasn't interested enough to find out. At the time, all I thought was, "My how nice of them."

My best guess is that while there is a lot of foolishness tied up in the houses and in the cars, there's little scandal there. Might be, but I doubt it. My impression of the 1916-1942 era is that it was a mean spirited Jerk (Rutherford) against the Flakes (van Amburg would be one) and the Crazies (PSL Johnson would qualify). Probably the real scandals are in their interactions.

The shift from congregationalism to "theocracy" is also troubling. I don't think anyone has really followed that in detail. I believe the real issues with Rutherford rest in his dictatorial grasp on gullible worshipers.

85

University student's JW based honors thesis research. PLEASE HELP!

by honorsthesis in

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/defectedmembers_honorsthesis.

hello community,.

my name is brett w., and i am senior undergraduate student at the university of florida.

Old Goat

An online survey is anything but valid. I wouldn't accept its use by one of my students, especially for inclusion on an "honors" thesis. The results will be skewed toward the view of dirty, filty, apostates (us) and away from current believers. If you were submitting this for my review, I'd be asking you all sorts of questions about validity and procedure. You'd probably be fairly unhappy within the first minute.

If I were writing this I'd follow this outline:

1. State my thesis: "Jehovah's Witnesses claim political neutrality, but they have distinctive political view. American Witnesses tend to be politically conservative and socially liberal. Their political beliefs manifest themselves outside the usual political channels, showing themselves in social ways rather than through political activisim.

2. Analysis of Russellite era political statements - An examination of Russell’s writing in three areas: 1. Christian’s relationship to the state; 2. Christian’s view of international conflicts; 3. Christian’s social responsibilities

3. Same for Rutherford era. Examine anti-Fascist and anti-Nazi statements and expressions of American Nativism found in Rutherford era writings. Rutherford’s view of European colonialism. Rutherford’s “neutrality” doctrine.

4. Knorr-Franz era. As above. Examination of anti-Communist, anti-Socialist and anti-Colonialist statements.

5. The Governing Body era. As above. Also refusal to identify “King of the North.” This is an era full of socio-political statements couched in Biblical terms.

6. Rank and file views are mixed. Members tend to continue to hold to the political views entertained before entering active group participation. Their new world-view subverts active political expression. That warnings are frequently given to the membership to be “neutral” shows that many are not.

7. Examples and incidents where political neutrality doctrine fails. (Africa and Taiwan provide interesting examples. You will find more by searching google news archives).

8. Balance with false accusations of political activism. Restate your thesis and summarize proof.

Have you discussed this with your professors? No professor in his right mind (many are not in their right minds.) would accept a web survey. I wouldn’t. Rethink this.

46

The Governing Body wants JWs to really, really understand this one point

by cattails in

if you had to guess what point of their teaching.

the governing body wants jws to really, really understand,.

24:45.. the comment highlights that because jesus "did not say that there would be a multitude of slaves scattered throughout the various sects of christendom.

Old Goat

I'm old, right? Probably old enough to grandfather to many of you. The one thing about the faithful slave doctrine that always disturbed me was the idea that the "collective" determined the organization's course. This is a blatant falsehood. The "anointed" as a group do not choose members of the governing body. They do not submit articles to the Watchtower for publication. They do not meet to hash out doctrinal points. The Faithful Slave/Governing Body doctrine is a contrivance, a lie. If the faithful slave is a collective (most reputable commentators give it another meaning), then the Governing Body is a rebel organization, ignoring those to whom they are responsible. That would make them Apostate! Imagine.

60

Anyone Know JW's who Donated Inheritances, Estates,$$$ to WT Society ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

if so - without divulging any names , approximately how much was donated to the wt society ?

if you are aware of approximate amounts.

as many know the wt society yearly puts out calls in their publications for witnesses to donate trust funds, wills, inheritances, estates, jewelry, cars and whatever else they have to promote the aleged " kingdom interests " in furthering the " good news " around the world.. personally i feel it's all been a scam to continue exercising control over witnesses by influencing them to financially deprive themselves so the wt society can continue it's operations.

Old Goat

I have assets not part of the marrital estate. In my old will they all went to the Watchtower Society. In my current will they go to my youngest daughter with instructions on how best to dispose of them for cold hard cash. The Watchtower be damned. They are the source of endless anger and pain.

Only a fool would leave them anything. Most people have family. It should ALL go to your family. Nothing should go to the uncaring slugs who sit in the Watchtower executive offices. I hate them all.

How about that for blunt?

Oh, yes, I talked my mother out of leaving them a 150K annuity too.

12

Looking for digital copies of witness books before 1970 for research.

by average joe in

jw
friends

i am trying to find a copy of "let your name be sanctified" preferably in pdf or other.

i am trying to research old books that were made before the 1970's.

i would be grateful if people would be kind enough to share what they have for my research.

Old Goat

those books show up on ebay all the time. they're very inexpensive. And they're not very exciting. does your research have a goal?

The last ediition of qualified to be ministers (1967) is just a ministry school guide. the first edition had a bit of history in the back. it's not very accurate.

your word is a lamp was a rather insipid organizational guide. baptismal (dismal) questions in the back.

things in which it is impossible to lie was a basic doctrines book. boring has heck, poorly written.

These are not hard to find books. ebay or abe.com or a thrift store

12

Looking for digital copies of witness books before 1970 for research.

by average joe in

jw
friends

i am trying to find a copy of "let your name be sanctified" preferably in pdf or other.

i am trying to research old books that were made before the 1970's.

i would be grateful if people would be kind enough to share what they have for my research.

Old Goat

Can you give us more details? What are you looking for?

An excellent source for early Watchtower history is http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . That site is run by a Witness historian, but he seems to spare no one when it comes to exposing stupidity. He has a book out too. The book is about Nelson Barbour and his beliefs. Excellent book, I think.

There are severals Bible Student sites with older material on them too. There are CD's with Russell material. One of them is always listed on ebay.

If you tell us what you're looking for, we might be able to offer more specific help.

57

In the past, FAKE newspaper coverage of WT "International Conventions" in the US

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

many people that post or lurk here at jwn are too young to remember some of the huge international conventions jws held many years ago, but probably have seen impressive photos such as of the 1958 eight-day convention held simultaneously at new yorks yankee stadium and polo grounds.

especially remarkable was the tremendous newspaper coverage of that assembly and other special conventions held in the 1940s and 50s in the united states.

yesterday, when i downloaded somebodys old scrapbook full of long-ago newspaper articles, http://www.archive.org/details/watchtowernewsscrapbook,reporting on jehovahs witnesses so-called international conventions, i couldnt help but remember what i wrote regarding extraordinary newspaper convention coverage in my www.freeminds.org article, how jehovahs witnesses watchtower religion impacted my family history, part 3 and thought id share the information here on jwn for those who are not familiar with how such wonderful coverage came about.

Old Goat

For a number of reasons I avoid identifiers on this board and seldom post. But I was a Public Relations Servant, later Overseer, and worked at some of the International conventions. Yes, there were special editions sold to conventioners. To my knowledge the Society did not benefit monitarily. But they did use quotations in post assembly articles.

Newspaper reporters are notoriously lazy people. We had endles handouts, short typed up biographies of Knorr or Franz, fact sheets, and similar items that we gave them. Sometimes their articles were a paste job made up from the hand-outs.

I still have a large folder of this material from one of the international conventions. The biography of Franz was especially bad. Not much truth in that bit of propaganda, though we didn't know that at the time.

The society printed a manual for New Service Servants back in the 1950's. It was a how-to booklet. In 1958 all the circuit news service servants atended a pep-talk how-to meeting in New York City during the convention. We were given a mimeographed booklet with sample news releases. The local product was so bad in most circuits that little of it was being published.

I remember Witnesses remarking how wonderful a news article in a large regional newspaper was. This was in the late 1960's. I had to smile because I wrote it. The paper published it as written. The "brothers" thought it remarkable that the paper was so nice to us.

15

Please help me publish my book on the JW organisation.

by TheEndIsNigh in

jw
friends

my book, the end is nigh...again (but this time we really mean it) is now finished and available to read.

its a tongue in cheek, real life saga about the life of a second generation jehovahs witness that pokes fun at the organisation that to this day continues to completely screw up the lives of many decent people.

i have uploaded the entire manuscript to a site called slush pile reader.

Old Goat

Dear EndIs,

Slushpile reader is a rip off. Sorry. My friend Ann Crispin, a fantasy and science fiction writer, has discussed this on her writers beware blog.

If you want publication by a traditional house, you have two approaches. Find a literary agent who handles "Christian" material. There are a number of good agent lists out there, both in print and on the internet. Do not expect the first agent to whom you submit to say yes. They will read the first few paragraphs. Within the first sentence or two they will assess your writing ability. It's a brutal world. Be prepared for rejections. My first book was rejected nearly 20 times before it found a publisher. It's often worse than that. The second approach is to find a "Christian" publishing house or any publisher who may look for that kind of material and submit to them directly. Read their submission guidelines. Check them out on Predators and Editors. There are many, many fraudulent publishers.

Your manuscript must be the best you can make it, brutally edited, clean. It should be your very best. Before you submit to anyone, have someone you trust for their critical ability and grasp of good writing read it and critique it. Join a critique group if you need to. My beta reader is a Canadian English professor. She's sharp and willing to put in the effort.

Commercial publishers look for things that will sell. No matter how good your prose may be, if they do not think it will sell and sell well, they will tell you no.

You can always publish on lulu.com. It's free to you. They offer "packages" for edits and such. Those cost money. If you're confident that you're all ready to go, you do not need them and can publish for free. Their profit comes from selling your book. They take a percentage. Lulu is great for limited interest and academic material that will see small circulation.

Visit Agent's blogs. Get a feel for what is demanded of you as a writer. It's an exceptional book that sees publication. Typically my agent gets 500-1000 queries in a month. An assistant wades through them first, pruning out the really awful. Out of that 'slush pile' she may request a "partial" from two individuals, sometimes three. A partial is the first few chapters of your manuscript. (Some agents ask for the first three chapters with your initial submission). She will either ask for the entire manuscript or tell you no.

Do not complain about rejections, and by all means do not say nasty things about publishers, editors, or agents. It's a very small world. Everyone talks to everyone else. You post something nasty or complain loudly about someone in the industry, others will hear it. Bad idea. Grit your teeth.

Those are your options.

100

Where did 607 come from?

by MrFreeze in

okay so we've obviously established on this board that 607 is not the correct date that babylon destroyed jerusalem.

even before 1914 came around, the bible students still thought 1914 would be a pivital date.

the only way they can gain that info is from the 7 times or w/e.

Old Goat

Most reputable scholars date Zoroaster to the tenth century b.c. That would post date Abraham.

David Pareus does mention the date 606, but that's 606 A.D. not B.C. He felt the symbolic woman of Revelation fled into the "wilderness" in 606 AD. There are five references to 606 in his book A Commentary Upon the Divine Revelation of the Apostle and Evangelist John. (see the English translation from latin, 1644) Each reference is to a date AD and a fulfilment on the Christian Church. If you're really curious, a copy of the book translated into English is in the University of Michigan library.

A long string of writers looked to 606AD as a prophetic date. Another example is Edward Wells, Rector of Cotesbach. He cites the 606 date, but it's AD. not BC. You can find that in An Help for the More Easy and Clear Understanding of the Holy Scriptures: Being The Book of Daniel Explain'd published in 1716.

7

Anyone can recommend a book about 1st century christianity?

by zakheyold in

jw
friends

i just finished "la vie quotidienne des premiers chretiens.

95-197" ("early christians' daily life") by a.-g. hamman.

it describes everyday life of 2nd century christians.

Old Goat

Alan F. Segal's Paul the Convert, Yale University Press, 1990